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	<title>Comments on: How the Princeton Review Destroyed our Collective Confidence</title>
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	<link>http://www.elizabethonline.com/2009/princeton_review_hurt_us/</link>
	<description>SAT/ACT prep &#38; college coaching from the author of OUTSMARTING the SAT</description>
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		<title>By: ADRIAN'S BLOG</title>
		<link>http://www.elizabethonline.com/2009/princeton_review_hurt_us/comment-page-1/#comment-69</link>
		<dc:creator>ADRIAN'S BLOG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:25:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elizabethonline.com/?p=370#comment-69</guid>
		<description>Great article about Princeton Review</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article about Princeton Review</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew K. Tabor</title>
		<link>http://www.elizabethonline.com/2009/princeton_review_hurt_us/comment-page-1/#comment-60</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew K. Tabor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 20:24:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elizabethonline.com/?p=370#comment-60</guid>
		<description>Mark,

Little of your reply is valid. Elizabeth wrote a short post - 250 words? - with a provocative point for everyone&#039;s consideration. It wasn&#039;t a dissertation and it wasn&#039;t a scientific study [which was a wonderful decision - I&#039;ll get to that]. She wrote primarily about her experiences - which is perfectly appropriate for her own site. I didn&#039;t agree with every word, but I found her opinion interesting and worth revisiting.

Your point about &#039;attacking ideas&#039; is a mix of guilt and fiction. You suggested that another professional was intellectually irresponsible for the purpose of personal gain - and at the expense of another outfit in the sector, too. Attacking one&#039;s motivation and then trying to take some logical/argumentative high road aren&#039;t compatible. You hit a pothole.

It&#039;s worth noting that there really isn&#039;t any available evidence that could back up Elizabeth&#039;s claims. That&#039;s unfortunate in a way, but it also means we&#039;re fortunate to hear a unique, informed perspective that isn&#039;t readily available as a bar graph. None of the examples of evidence you cited would be worthwhile to prove/disprove Elizabeth&#039;s claim, and aside from a massive, comprehensive study on student attitudes before, during and after prep and the test itself, I can&#039;t think of any data or evidence that would stand up to a challenge. If we can&#039;t do a bit of social science properly, it&#039;s best not to pretend or try. That&#039;s responsible social science.

Heal thyself, Mr. Truman. A blog with a post tendentiously titled &quot;University of California Rejects the SAT Subject Tests and Focuses on Stuff That Matters&quot; with no cited evidence isn&#039;t a blog that should be calling out others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,</p>
<p>Little of your reply is valid. Elizabeth wrote a short post &#8211; 250 words? &#8211; with a provocative point for everyone&#8217;s consideration. It wasn&#8217;t a dissertation and it wasn&#8217;t a scientific study [which was a wonderful decision - I'll get to that]. She wrote primarily about her experiences &#8211; which is perfectly appropriate for her own site. I didn&#8217;t agree with every word, but I found her opinion interesting and worth revisiting.</p>
<p>Your point about &#8216;attacking ideas&#8217; is a mix of guilt and fiction. You suggested that another professional was intellectually irresponsible for the purpose of personal gain &#8211; and at the expense of another outfit in the sector, too. Attacking one&#8217;s motivation and then trying to take some logical/argumentative high road aren&#8217;t compatible. You hit a pothole.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s worth noting that there really isn&#8217;t any available evidence that could back up Elizabeth&#8217;s claims. That&#8217;s unfortunate in a way, but it also means we&#8217;re fortunate to hear a unique, informed perspective that isn&#8217;t readily available as a bar graph. None of the examples of evidence you cited would be worthwhile to prove/disprove Elizabeth&#8217;s claim, and aside from a massive, comprehensive study on student attitudes before, during and after prep and the test itself, I can&#8217;t think of any data or evidence that would stand up to a challenge. If we can&#8217;t do a bit of social science properly, it&#8217;s best not to pretend or try. That&#8217;s responsible social science.</p>
<p>Heal thyself, Mr. Truman. A blog with a post tendentiously titled &#8220;University of California Rejects the SAT Subject Tests and Focuses on Stuff That Matters&#8221; with no cited evidence isn&#8217;t a blog that should be calling out others.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. Os Barnes</title>
		<link>http://www.elizabethonline.com/2009/princeton_review_hurt_us/comment-page-1/#comment-57</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Os Barnes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 22:38:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elizabethonline.com/?p=370#comment-57</guid>
		<description>I have been in education for over thirty years, so I have a good handle on trends.  Once upon a time, in a land far, far away, there lived educators who taught something called &quot;fundamentals.&quot;  These people took children and taught them the raw basics of reading, writing, and arithmetic.  Children were given books to read, essays to write, and problems to solve.  The joy of discovery brightened the faces of many a lad and lassie.  Then, something strange happened.  As those educators died out, they were replaced by new educators who had been indoctrinated by the ideas of James, Darwin, and Kant.  Suddenly, there was no longer a system of propositional truth--rather, truth was what you believed to be true.  So, public education no longer taught facts qua facts; it encouraged students to create their own truth and value systems.  Since students could no longer drop their anchors into the rock of propositional truth, they suddenly found themselves swept along by every wind of ism out there.  Foreign students entered American PhD programs en masse; test scores for American students dropped; and America high school students felt they were losing in the college entrance battle.  Enter the big test prep companies.  By addressing a psychological need (&quot;I am unable to do this ACT/SAT test&quot;), these companies have grown to gargantuan sizes.  Like the federal government, which is now saying to Americans, &quot;You, the taxpayers, are unable to solve your problems; we will do it for you,&quot; the test prep companies are saying to students, &quot;You are unable on your own to master this test; we will help you--but with a catch.&quot;  And so, we have cartoon characters invented who, when the student &quot;lives himself into them,&quot; will be able to guess correctly on the tests.  Joe Blog is born.  Students enter into his psyche, and thus are able to score high enough on the tests to enter their dream schools.  I used TPR for my test prepping at school for several years.  Students who used this material thought it was a joke.  Moreover, none of the students scored higher than a 29 ACT.  Enter Outsmarting the SAT.  I purchased this book last summer.  We used it first semester, and, oh my goodness, here was the book I had been looking for.  My students have scored 2000+ on the SAT, 31+ on the ACT, and 220+ on the PSAT.  This book works because Elizabeth does not insult the kids&#039; intelligences; she, like the educators of old, actually teaches the raw basics of reading, writing, and arithmetic; and she uses examples that model the actual questions AND ANSWERS of college board and ACT tests.  TPR tests do not even come close to modeling actual tests.  I know because I have taken so many actual tests that TPR and Kaplan tests read like a foreign language.  So, I strongly disagree with the gentleman who is accusing Elizabeth of making a straw man out of TPR only to knock him down to promote her book.  Her book, which I have read now about ten times, can stand on its own.  For less than 20 bucks, Outsmarting the SAT is not only helping students outsmart that test--it is also giving them something money can&#039;t buy:  the ability to walk into that test room and tackle any question with confidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been in education for over thirty years, so I have a good handle on trends.  Once upon a time, in a land far, far away, there lived educators who taught something called &#8220;fundamentals.&#8221;  These people took children and taught them the raw basics of reading, writing, and arithmetic.  Children were given books to read, essays to write, and problems to solve.  The joy of discovery brightened the faces of many a lad and lassie.  Then, something strange happened.  As those educators died out, they were replaced by new educators who had been indoctrinated by the ideas of James, Darwin, and Kant.  Suddenly, there was no longer a system of propositional truth&#8211;rather, truth was what you believed to be true.  So, public education no longer taught facts qua facts; it encouraged students to create their own truth and value systems.  Since students could no longer drop their anchors into the rock of propositional truth, they suddenly found themselves swept along by every wind of ism out there.  Foreign students entered American PhD programs en masse; test scores for American students dropped; and America high school students felt they were losing in the college entrance battle.  Enter the big test prep companies.  By addressing a psychological need (&#8220;I am unable to do this ACT/SAT test&#8221;), these companies have grown to gargantuan sizes.  Like the federal government, which is now saying to Americans, &#8220;You, the taxpayers, are unable to solve your problems; we will do it for you,&#8221; the test prep companies are saying to students, &#8220;You are unable on your own to master this test; we will help you&#8211;but with a catch.&#8221;  And so, we have cartoon characters invented who, when the student &#8220;lives himself into them,&#8221; will be able to guess correctly on the tests.  Joe Blog is born.  Students enter into his psyche, and thus are able to score high enough on the tests to enter their dream schools.  I used TPR for my test prepping at school for several years.  Students who used this material thought it was a joke.  Moreover, none of the students scored higher than a 29 ACT.  Enter Outsmarting the SAT.  I purchased this book last summer.  We used it first semester, and, oh my goodness, here was the book I had been looking for.  My students have scored 2000+ on the SAT, 31+ on the ACT, and 220+ on the PSAT.  This book works because Elizabeth does not insult the kids&#8217; intelligences; she, like the educators of old, actually teaches the raw basics of reading, writing, and arithmetic; and she uses examples that model the actual questions AND ANSWERS of college board and ACT tests.  TPR tests do not even come close to modeling actual tests.  I know because I have taken so many actual tests that TPR and Kaplan tests read like a foreign language.  So, I strongly disagree with the gentleman who is accusing Elizabeth of making a straw man out of TPR only to knock him down to promote her book.  Her book, which I have read now about ten times, can stand on its own.  For less than 20 bucks, Outsmarting the SAT is not only helping students outsmart that test&#8211;it is also giving them something money can&#8217;t buy:  the ability to walk into that test room and tackle any question with confidence.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Truman</title>
		<link>http://www.elizabethonline.com/2009/princeton_review_hurt_us/comment-page-1/#comment-56</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Truman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 16:45:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elizabethonline.com/?p=370#comment-56</guid>
		<description>@Matthew - I&#039;m more than willing to concede that Elizabeth has some insight here based on her experiences working with students who have taken TPR classes.  If her blog post had said &quot;I work with former TPR students and they exhibit this fear and I think it&#039;s wrong,&quot; I would have moved on without comment.  In fact, I might have said &quot;Rock on!&quot;

However, her post didn&#039;t do that.  It asserted that TPR has fundamentally changed the way everyone takes the test without offering a lot of direct evidence for the ways it would do so.  She didn&#039;t cite the number of copies of &quot;Cracking the SAT&quot; that were sold last year or the number of schools currently working with TPR.  She didn&#039;t tell us about the number of students that TPR sees every year or the ways that other test prep companies have changed their methods because of TPR.

Instead, she simply asserted that something was true without a single link to the outside world to back up her claims.  She is using TPR as a strawman for the purposes of providing an &quot;alternate&quot; way of taking the test.  I&#039;m not accusing her of dishonesty, I&#039;m saying that I think this particular post is much more about selling herself than it is about convincing kids to be unafraid.  That&#039;s not wrong, but I think it&#039;s unfair to TPR to accuse them of something you don&#039;t have much evidence for simply to make a point about your own programs.

I think that both you and Elizabeth need to differentiate between attacking ideas and attacking people.  I&#039;ve done a lot of the former and none of the latter.  

I too have a blog, as you so noted.  I would be happy to have you come to my site and debate my evidence, arguments, conclusions.  In fact, I would be ecstatic for you to do so!  The blogosphere is a tough place.  Ideas get challenged, old ways of thinking can be torn down.  But only if we talk to each other and stomach a bit of intense questioning.  I&#039;m not hear to pick up business or tear down a competitor (I doubt that EK is close enough to me geographically anyway), but to engage in the conversation that she started.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Matthew &#8211; I&#8217;m more than willing to concede that Elizabeth has some insight here based on her experiences working with students who have taken TPR classes.  If her blog post had said &#8220;I work with former TPR students and they exhibit this fear and I think it&#8217;s wrong,&#8221; I would have moved on without comment.  In fact, I might have said &#8220;Rock on!&#8221;</p>
<p>However, her post didn&#8217;t do that.  It asserted that TPR has fundamentally changed the way everyone takes the test without offering a lot of direct evidence for the ways it would do so.  She didn&#8217;t cite the number of copies of &#8220;Cracking the SAT&#8221; that were sold last year or the number of schools currently working with TPR.  She didn&#8217;t tell us about the number of students that TPR sees every year or the ways that other test prep companies have changed their methods because of TPR.</p>
<p>Instead, she simply asserted that something was true without a single link to the outside world to back up her claims.  She is using TPR as a strawman for the purposes of providing an &#8220;alternate&#8221; way of taking the test.  I&#8217;m not accusing her of dishonesty, I&#8217;m saying that I think this particular post is much more about selling herself than it is about convincing kids to be unafraid.  That&#8217;s not wrong, but I think it&#8217;s unfair to TPR to accuse them of something you don&#8217;t have much evidence for simply to make a point about your own programs.</p>
<p>I think that both you and Elizabeth need to differentiate between attacking ideas and attacking people.  I&#8217;ve done a lot of the former and none of the latter.  </p>
<p>I too have a blog, as you so noted.  I would be happy to have you come to my site and debate my evidence, arguments, conclusions.  In fact, I would be ecstatic for you to do so!  The blogosphere is a tough place.  Ideas get challenged, old ways of thinking can be torn down.  But only if we talk to each other and stomach a bit of intense questioning.  I&#8217;m not hear to pick up business or tear down a competitor (I doubt that EK is close enough to me geographically anyway), but to engage in the conversation that she started.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Truman</title>
		<link>http://www.elizabethonline.com/2009/princeton_review_hurt_us/comment-page-1/#comment-55</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Truman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 16:33:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elizabethonline.com/?p=370#comment-55</guid>
		<description>@Shira - Awesome!  I&#039;m glad to hear that working on fundamentals was so successful for you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Shira &#8211; Awesome!  I&#8217;m glad to hear that working on fundamentals was so successful for you.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew K. Tabor</title>
		<link>http://www.elizabethonline.com/2009/princeton_review_hurt_us/comment-page-1/#comment-54</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew K. Tabor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 00:50:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elizabethonline.com/?p=370#comment-54</guid>
		<description>Elizabeth&#039;s point is worth consideration. We&#039;ve had a change in attitude toward the SAT/ACT and even GRE/LSAT over the last decades - and it&#039;s a change that affects how all of us do our jobs, whether we prep, help with applications, or just plain raise the kids.

Mark, you&#039;ve called on Elizabeth to provide &quot;direct evidence&quot; and provided none of your own. Nothing of value, just a couple anecdotes. That&#039;s poor argumentation and is a bit priggish, both things those of us with our own sites deal with frequently and easily.

But accusing another professional, especially one in the same sector, of such dishonesty for personal gain - when there&#039;s a valid point, no less - is too much. 

Your comment links confidently to Omniac. Imagine if I suggested that you were e-fighting for the purpose of picking up a little business, or what&#039;s more likely, hurting a competitor. It would be ridiculous. It&#039;s far kinder - and more realistic - to suggest that you&#039;re just plain wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Elizabeth&#8217;s point is worth consideration. We&#8217;ve had a change in attitude toward the SAT/ACT and even GRE/LSAT over the last decades &#8211; and it&#8217;s a change that affects how all of us do our jobs, whether we prep, help with applications, or just plain raise the kids.</p>
<p>Mark, you&#8217;ve called on Elizabeth to provide &#8220;direct evidence&#8221; and provided none of your own. Nothing of value, just a couple anecdotes. That&#8217;s poor argumentation and is a bit priggish, both things those of us with our own sites deal with frequently and easily.</p>
<p>But accusing another professional, especially one in the same sector, of such dishonesty for personal gain &#8211; when there&#8217;s a valid point, no less &#8211; is too much. </p>
<p>Your comment links confidently to Omniac. Imagine if I suggested that you were e-fighting for the purpose of picking up a little business, or what&#8217;s more likely, hurting a competitor. It would be ridiculous. It&#8217;s far kinder &#8211; and more realistic &#8211; to suggest that you&#8217;re just plain wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Shira</title>
		<link>http://www.elizabethonline.com/2009/princeton_review_hurt_us/comment-page-1/#comment-47</link>
		<dc:creator>Shira</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 21:57:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elizabethonline.com/?p=370#comment-47</guid>
		<description>As a freshman in college thrilled beyond belief to be done with the SATs and a former student of Elizabeth&#039;s, I can say that when talking with friends and classmates about the SATs (which we did all the time), what kept coming up over and over again was &quot;its impossible&quot; or &quot;you&#039;re not meant to do well on the SAT.&quot; While some this rhetoric is definitely a result of general teenage histrionics, the test prep culture definitely emphasized guessing strategies that made it less about skills and more about luck. I myself am personally more of a verbal girl, so when I took my first few practice exams I didnt even bother trying to work through more difficult math problems--I tried to guess and &quot;logic&quot; my way through them, which obviously failed. Even the questions I did manage to solve, I would double guess the answers, thinking the SAT was trying to trick me into the wrong answer. The only thing that gave me more confidence was tedious, painful but necessary work on high school math fundamentals. Once I knew that I knew how to solve the math problems, I refused to let guessing tactics scare me into rethinking my answers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a freshman in college thrilled beyond belief to be done with the SATs and a former student of Elizabeth&#8217;s, I can say that when talking with friends and classmates about the SATs (which we did all the time), what kept coming up over and over again was &#8220;its impossible&#8221; or &#8220;you&#8217;re not meant to do well on the SAT.&#8221; While some this rhetoric is definitely a result of general teenage histrionics, the test prep culture definitely emphasized guessing strategies that made it less about skills and more about luck. I myself am personally more of a verbal girl, so when I took my first few practice exams I didnt even bother trying to work through more difficult math problems&#8211;I tried to guess and &#8220;logic&#8221; my way through them, which obviously failed. Even the questions I did manage to solve, I would double guess the answers, thinking the SAT was trying to trick me into the wrong answer. The only thing that gave me more confidence was tedious, painful but necessary work on high school math fundamentals. Once I knew that I knew how to solve the math problems, I refused to let guessing tactics scare me into rethinking my answers.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.elizabethonline.com/2009/princeton_review_hurt_us/comment-page-1/#comment-46</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 21:54:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elizabethonline.com/?p=370#comment-46</guid>
		<description>Look, I am wildly frustrated with how many students I have who are intimidated by SAT and ACT tests  because they have made the transitive assumption that we guess because we can&#039;t actually answer-- math AND reading comprehension included. That&#039;s the point in a nutshell, take it or leave it. 

And Mark, this is my blog. Of course I am using it to promote my ideas. That&#039;s sort of the point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Look, I am wildly frustrated with how many students I have who are intimidated by SAT and ACT tests  because they have made the transitive assumption that we guess because we can&#8217;t actually answer&#8211; math AND reading comprehension included. That&#8217;s the point in a nutshell, take it or leave it. </p>
<p>And Mark, this is my blog. Of course I am using it to promote my ideas. That&#8217;s sort of the point.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Truman</title>
		<link>http://www.elizabethonline.com/2009/princeton_review_hurt_us/comment-page-1/#comment-45</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Truman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 21:47:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elizabethonline.com/?p=370#comment-45</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not attacking you.  I&#039;m attacking the idea that asserting that something is true is the same as providing evidence and data.  I&#039;m not an ardent TPR supporter by any stretch of the imagination...

If you are encountering these ideas with students who were active participants in their classes, I&#039;m glad you brought it up!  That&#039;s exactly the kind of evidence you should have included in your original post instead of asserting that it was affecting ALL students without explaining the vector of transmission.

I like the idea that understanding the core concepts will improve student&#039;s scores.  I have found in my tutoring that working on fundamentals often results in larger score improvements than any fancy techniques.  I think you and I probably agree more than we disagree.  

However, I think you&#039;re attacking TPR to promote yourself far more than to make your point....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not attacking you.  I&#8217;m attacking the idea that asserting that something is true is the same as providing evidence and data.  I&#8217;m not an ardent TPR supporter by any stretch of the imagination&#8230;</p>
<p>If you are encountering these ideas with students who were active participants in their classes, I&#8217;m glad you brought it up!  That&#8217;s exactly the kind of evidence you should have included in your original post instead of asserting that it was affecting ALL students without explaining the vector of transmission.</p>
<p>I like the idea that understanding the core concepts will improve student&#8217;s scores.  I have found in my tutoring that working on fundamentals often results in larger score improvements than any fancy techniques.  I think you and I probably agree more than we disagree.  </p>
<p>However, I think you&#8217;re attacking TPR to promote yourself far more than to make your point&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.elizabethonline.com/2009/princeton_review_hurt_us/comment-page-1/#comment-44</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 21:34:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.elizabethonline.com/?p=370#comment-44</guid>
		<description>Funny you should ask (or assume that they haven’t been exposed to these products), because it is the students who have been exposed to these programs that are the most apprehensive--this includes students who have worked in TPR classes, students who have been tutored by tutors trained by them (at their offices or who now subcontract for more exclusive companies), and even a student who worked with Adam himself. 

I’m glad to hear that you are not experiencing this problem, although it is certainly rampant with my students. I’m sure TPR will be pleased to hear that it still has at least one ardent supporter!

And you’re right, I’m not promoting new ideas. Competency, confidence, hard work, problem solving--these are all as old as the redwoods. Why you would attack me for wanting to emphasize these values is beyond me, but you’re certainly entitled to your opinion. Perhaps you missed the cart for the horse? Somehow those values have been pushed aside, not only in test preparation (a largely irrelevant and idiosyncratic moment itself), but also in our broader culture.  But that’s another blog post.  ~e</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny you should ask (or assume that they haven’t been exposed to these products), because it is the students who have been exposed to these programs that are the most apprehensive&#8211;this includes students who have worked in TPR classes, students who have been tutored by tutors trained by them (at their offices or who now subcontract for more exclusive companies), and even a student who worked with Adam himself. </p>
<p>I’m glad to hear that you are not experiencing this problem, although it is certainly rampant with my students. I’m sure TPR will be pleased to hear that it still has at least one ardent supporter!</p>
<p>And you’re right, I’m not promoting new ideas. Competency, confidence, hard work, problem solving&#8211;these are all as old as the redwoods. Why you would attack me for wanting to emphasize these values is beyond me, but you’re certainly entitled to your opinion. Perhaps you missed the cart for the horse? Somehow those values have been pushed aside, not only in test preparation (a largely irrelevant and idiosyncratic moment itself), but also in our broader culture.  But that’s another blog post.  ~e</p>
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